Wandering Thoughts archives


How the modern web 2.0 social web irritates me by hiding discussions

Recently an interesting discussion of my entry on what systemd gets right broke out on Google+, including both interesting stuff and some things that I want to respond to. What sucks about the modern Web 2.0 social web is that I found this discussion basically only through luck.

Oh, I knew that someone on Google+ had linked to my entry and had a bunch of readers; I could see the Referers from plus.url.google.com come rolling in in my web server logs. But in common with a lot of other Web 2.0 sites the Referer values were of absolutely no use to backtrack to the actual discussion; they were encoded and basically generic (if I visited one of them I wound up on a little interstitial 'you are about to visit an outside website, are you sure?' page).

This is more severe than my earlier irritation with Twitter about this in that G+ is actually hiding a real discussion from me (okay, people have real discussions on Twitter too but perhaps not quite as much), a discussion that in many other circumstances might have happened in the comments section of my entry (where I could directly see it and address it). Of course this is partly the result of a deliberate design decision on G+'s part; G+ wants you to have your discussion on G+, not on some outside site. From Google's perspective what happened here is not a bug but a feature.

(This is unlike a similar issue with Facebook because the discussion here on G+ is public, not private.)

This is nothing new, of course. I just feel like grumbling about it since I was so directly reminded of it.

Sidebar: How I found this discussion

Someone in my Twitter stream had linked to an earlier Lennart Poettering G+ post that reacted to the whole 'FLOS vs Unix' thing and mentioned systemd in relation to that. It struck me that if anyone on G+ was going to link to my entry at this point it might well be Poettering, so I backtracked to his G+ page and there it was. Had his earlier post not appeared on my radar I would have had no real clue.

(I knew that Poettering knew about my entry because he left some comments on it.)

web/SocialWebHidesDiscussions written at 23:49:57; Add Comment

User mode servers versus kernel mode servers

There at least used to be a broad belief that user mode servers for things like NFS, iSCSI, and so on were generally significantly worse than the same thing implemented in kernel mode. I've reflexively had this belief myself, although I no longer think it has much of a basis in fact. Today, sparked by a comment on this entry and my reply there, I feel like working through why (to the best of my ability).

As always, let's start with a fundamental question: what are the differences between a user mode server and a kernel mode version of the same thing? What extra work does a user mode server do that a kernel mode version avoids? My answer is that there are four possible extra costs imposed by user mode: extra context switches between user and kernel mode, the overhead added by making system calls, possibly extra memory copies between user and kernel space, and possible extra CPU time (and perhaps things like TLB misses) that running in user space requires. User space memory can also get swapped out (well, paged out), but I'm going to assume that your machine is set up so that this doesn't happen.

Let's assume that all of these add some overhead. The big question is when this added overhead matters and I think that the general answer has to be 'when a kernel mode server is already running on the edge of the hardware's performance limits'. If a kernel server has lots of extra room in terms of CPU performance, memory bandwidth, and response latency then adding extra overhead to all of them by moving to user space is not likely to make an observable performance difference to outside people. This is especially so if performance is dominated by outside factors such as the network speed, disk transfer speeds, and disk latencies (yes, I have iSCSI and NFS on my mind).

Or in short if you can easily saturate things and reach the performance limits imposed by the hardware, user versus kernel mode isn't going to make a difference. Only when a kernel mode version is having trouble hitting the underlying performance limits is the extra overhead of a user mode server likely to be noticeable.

An equally interesting question is why user mode servers used to be such a bad thing and what changed between then and now. As it happens, I have some views on this which I am going to boil down to point form answers:

  • CPUs are much faster and generally lower-latency than in the old days, and especially they've gotten much faster compared to everything else (except possibly if you're using 10GB Ethernet instead of 1GB Ethernet).

  • OSes have gotten better about system call speed, both at the context switch boundaries between user and kernel space and in the general system call code inside the kernel.
  • OSes have gotten better system call APIs that require less system calls and have more efficient implementations.
  • OSes have devoted some work to minimizing memory copies between kernel and user space for networking code, especially if you're willing to be OS-specific.

  • we now understand much more about writing highly efficient user level code for network servers; this is part of what has driven support for better kernel APIs.

The short, general version of this is is simply that it became much easier to hit the hardware's performance limits compared to how it was in the past.

Some of the old difference may have been (and still be) pragmatic, in that kernel developers generally have no choice but to write more careful and more efficient code than general user level code. Partly this is because the user level code can take various easy ways out that aren't available to the kernel code; by running in a constrained environment with various restrictions, the kernel forces developers to consider various important issues that user level code can just brush under the carpet.

tech/UserVersusKernelModeServers written at 01:19:43; Add Comment

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